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Have the Atheists Become the Gorillas?

atheistsEvery time I write an article that mentions god – even if used as a descriptive reference to “the gods” – I get insulting and arrogant comments from atheists. And it’s not just me; you can see the same thing all over the Internet.

To put it simply, these people are bullies, striking unbidden with fast, hard blows. It’s not about truth; it’s about dominance.

Not all atheists do this, obviously. I have quite a few atheist friends who are decent, kind people. But an abusive strain of atheism has taken root in recent years, and I think it’s time to confront it.

Here’s the key:

The goal of these bullies is not to find truth or even to defend it; it’s to put down other people – to insult, humiliate and laugh at the fools who believe in any sort of god, even people who use references to god.

These people slash and burn. They labor to destroy, not to build.

I used to have a standing offer: that I would publish any atheist book that did not criticize, but instead told people how atheism would make their lives better. The result? No one ever submitted a manuscript.

The Irony of It All

Last week I wrote an article entitled Are you a Gorilla or a God? In it, I explained that the worst of human behavior is gorilla-like and the best god-like. I went on to explain the gorilla side this way:

Dominant gorillas seek status and the power to control others. The submissive apes seek to pass along their pain to the apes below them.

In response to the article (which mentioned gods!), I received the business end of that atheistic slash and burn. But these people never realized that they were placing themselves precisely into the position I had assigned to the gorillas: slapping and biting smaller animals to make themselves dominant.

A Defense of Atheism

I don’t have a problem with atheism per se. I was actually raised as an atheist, by a mother whose love I never for a moment doubted. And, as I say, I have friends who are atheists. The opinion, by itself, doesn’t bother me.

I think atheism is a valid opinion. I happen to disagree with it, but I disagree with a lot of things – that doesn’t mean I go about to destroy them all. Our goal should be to improve people, not to chop them up.

One essential flaw I find with strident atheism is that no one can know enough to make that pronouncement. Here’s what I mean:

  • I think it is 100% fair to say, “I’ve never seen evidence of a God, so I don’t think there is one.”
  • What I don’t think is fair, is to say, “I know there is no such thing as God.” This is especially true regarding the Judeo-Christian God, who is said to exist beyond our universe. Until they can look beyond the universe, no one can say for sure.

Some atheists will say that putting God outside of the universe was merely a trick to avoid evidence. But even if it did begin as a trick, the idea stands on its own, and saying, “I know that there is no god at all, anywhere,” is unsound.

But, again, to say, “I see no evidence and don’t think there’s a God” is an entirely fair and rational opinion.

The Unfair Atheist Argument

You’ve all seen the technique: The aggressive atheist picks their spot and pounces with references to the very worst examples of theism, and implies that all believers are that way.

But most believers have no desire at all to burn witches or stone homosexuals. To paint them as being that way is not only unfair; it is abusive.

These atheists will, of course, pull together abstract arguments, saying, “Your book says that, and you say you believe the book, so you defend burning witches.”

The truth, however, is that modern believers want nothing to do with burning witches, inquisitions, or any other horrors. (In fact, they would oppose them strongly.) The atheists know this, of course; they’re just trying to slash and burn.

A kinder, better atheist would say, “You believers really should explain why you no longer accept some of the things written in your book.” That would be honest and helpful.

Can We All Get Along?

Yes, of course we can. Only one thing needs to be absent (on both sides): the desire to injure and dominate.

Atheists and theists can be friends and co-travelers. I’ve spent pleasant hours with evangelists for atheism. We disagreed, we got over it, and we enjoyed each other’s company.

It really comes back to the basic principles that we learned as children: You don’t try to bully them, and they shouldn’t try to bully you. Play nice.

It isn’t that hard.

Paul Rosenberg

{ 123 comments… add one }
  • Hey you November 14, 2013, 8:42 pm

    No, I’m not about to burn witches or stone homosexuals. However, when one considers politicians on the federal level . . . well?

  • Jon Marathon November 14, 2013, 9:16 pm

    It seems the tables have turned. For almost 2,000 years militant Christians persecuted heretics and nonbelievers. Even today at least seven states–Arkansas, Maryland, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas–have in place constitutional provisions that bar atheists from holding public office. Arkansas also has a law that bars an atheist from testifying as a witness at a trial. The Supreme Court struck down these provisions as unconstitutional in 1961, but they are still on the books. Now that Christianity has entered a kinder, gentler era, Christians complain about a few militant atheists, who are a tiny, if vocal, minority. These militant atheists are more like annoying mosquitoes than gorillas. Christians, being in the majority in the US, still hold all the levers of power and can just swat them away. But your point is well taken, we should all just try to get along.

    • louis_wheeler November 15, 2013, 5:37 pm

      The problem, Jon, is when any group, religious or secular, uses the power of the state to coerce beliefs. How is the fight for religious freedom any different from that of economic freedom? Atheist want to force their ideologies on others. The ideology of the Left says that all wealth should be redistributed and that state power should have no limits.

      Also, we still had federalism, back then, so if you disagree with a particular state’s religious doctrines, you could move to a state where there was more freedom. Where can you go to escape Obamacare?

      • chrissss November 17, 2013, 6:50 pm

        Where’s your proof that atheist want to force their point of view on you, we merely point out your ridiculous beliefs, we aren’t telling you you have to not believe in god, we say your belief in god is ridiculous and heres the proof.

        Where is your proof that atheists say the state should have power without limits??

        Quite the contrary we want the state to not exist at all.

        • louis_wheeler November 17, 2013, 8:23 pm

          Atheists are using the government to force their views on us. They want to remove all Christian belief and expression from the public arena. They remove the Ten Commandments from our courthouses and creches from public parks or buildings. They pervert our traditions: They use the words Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. They ridicule Christian beliefs on TV. They promote as alternate lifestyles the most heinous and disgusting of practices.

          Oh! It’s the Leftists in the Democrat party which is doing this. But, if you ask them, they will say that they are Atheists. It all about Antonio Gramsci’s war on western culture.

          You say you want the state to not exist, then do you wish for barbarism? Are you anarcho-Capitalist or a Communist? There will always be evil doers. The problem is when they get in control of a government. I am not an anarchist,. I am a minarchist.

          • chrissss November 17, 2013, 8:37 pm

            You will agree that this country was founded on religious freedom right??

            If so then the word GOD should not be anywhere in anything that has to do with government, we are just trying to make things equal, you can’t have separation of state and religion then put GOD in all documents. It is this CHRISTIAN government that has been forcing religion on the people, we are just telling them to stop. Again where is your proof atheists are using the government anymore than the Christians are?? Also haven’t christians been using the government since its inception to force their views on us?? Kinda sucks when the situation gets reversed doesn’t it??

            You perverted you Savior in the name of selling out to corporations, Jesus was not born December 25th, and he was not resurrected on Easter, these are corporate holidays, that Christian business owners have made to increase their profits. How is that not forcing your beliefs on anyone??

            Yes government is evil, so why have one?? I want a voluntary society, where interactions are on a voluntary basis not provided at the barrel of a gun.

            Someone who wants to commit murder, rape or any other crime is not deterred because of government, they are dterred by the penalty, in a voluntary society if someone rapes someone that person will likely be killed by another, it is unlikely anyone is gonna kill the guy who killed the rapist, simply because he was righting a wrong. Much like what happens in prison, a child molester often goes in but rarely comes out unscathed, the one who scathed him usually is a hero and not messed with after.

            So whats the difference between that and government, one is voluntary the other is all by the barrel of a gun.

            Like I have said just stop posting, your not intelligent enough to make a valid argument to me.

          • louis_wheeler November 17, 2013, 9:38 pm

            No, this country was founded on the belief that the common man could rule himself. The US was not founded as a theocracy. There were so many competing religious beliefs, that a war would have broken out if a tax supported, state religion was established. So that was forbidden in the 1st amendment.

            You express very dubious history. Jefferson’s wall of “separation of Church and State”was that the state had no authority to interfere in religious matters, not the opposite.

            You say that you want a voluntary society, except in matters of religious faith. That is no freedom, at all, when you can practice thought control.

            You stopped making sense long ago.

  • louis_wheeler November 14, 2013, 9:55 pm

    I have problems with Atheists. It’s all about what these people are trying to prove. The rules of logic say that you cannot prove a negative argument because to do so, you would have to be omniscient. Hence, we should be careful with absolute statements which start with All or No. They are unprovable.

    Perhaps, in some far off corner of the universe, God exists. How would an Atheist know that he does not? Where is his proof?

    It is perfectly reasonable to be a doubter or a skeptic. All that says is that you know that you are too ignorant to know the truth, so you will not rush to judgement. Being an agnostic is harder to prove, because it doubts whether mankind will ever know the truth. That is a nicer way of saying that people are too stupid to know.

    But, neither a skeptic, nor an agnostic, is offended by another person’s faith.

    This is not true with Evangelical Atheists. The Atheist always tries to “turn the tables” by expressing doubts and then demanding that the faithful prove that God exists. I say that proof doesn’t matter; people will believe what they want to believe. I have never met an Atheist who was open minded.

    The important thing is that God knows that you exist and will hold you accountable for your actions and beliefs here on earth. None of the Atheists’ arguments hold water. They maintain that the existence of evil, or the fact that innocent people get harmed, is proof that God is absent or Evil. But, it could also mean that life is more complex that any simplistic Atheist could ever dream. So, he is begging the question. Pretending to have knowledge.

    What is at issue is that Atheists are believers; they just have a different God. Often, it is Scientism: the belief that science holds all the answers. But, science can only deal with the corporeal, physical universe. Or they will believe in Governmental power. Or in Socialism: the belief in mankind as a group can replace God. Or in Marxist ideology: the belief in Hegel’s theory of History,

    We must turn the tables on the Atheists and ask what they believe in. How can they prove that their faith or ideology is possible? Where has their beliefs worked before? Where did any Socialist society not lead to ruin?

    • Tim Panogo November 14, 2013, 11:59 pm

      Your logic is exactly backwards. Extraordinary claims require equally extraordinary evidence. The burden of proof is squarely on you.

      • louis_wheeler November 15, 2013, 5:01 pm

        Who are you to tell me what to believe? I have nothing to prove to you, even if you were open minded. It may be your lot in life to never believe. If so, I pity you. You go your way and I go mine.

        I was speaking about the people who believe that they have the right to attack religion. They use the worse logic; Atheism is a case they cannot prove. If they were mere skeptics or Agnostics, then we would have no dispute. We would merely compete in the realm of ideas. But, erroneous ideas lead to bad results, poverty and death. Societies which lose their religion stop having enough children to maintain their population.

        The Evangelical Atheists will not leave religious people alone. They use the government schools to indoctrinate our children. Hollywood and the Media promote the worst lifestyles. Those leftist movies no longer make them money, so it’s all about pushing their ideology.

        They use the government to force their beliefs on us. America’s Catholic hospitals are shutting down because the Obama administration would force them to provide birth control and abortions. It’s all part of a plan to move America to Single Payer socialized medicine.

        • JSebastian November 15, 2013, 6:10 pm

          Because you make extraordinary and outlandish claims such as “The important thing is that God knows that you exist and will hold you accountable for your actions and beliefs here on earth.”

          What evidence do you have for such a statement that purports to be fact?

          Please don’t conflate the runaway Statism and Socialist/Commie schemes of the left with Atheism. They are not related.

          • louis_wheeler November 15, 2013, 7:22 pm

            I don’t care what you believe. Nor do I have to prove anything. One of us is right. One of us is going to pay a heavy price for arrogance.

            Leftism, Nihilism and Atheism do go together. It would be impossible for someone to be a Socialist Christian, because the concepts are diametrically opposed.

            Salvation is an individual matter. You cannot get it as member of a group, sect or religion. Those religious groups who attempt to combine the two ideas, Liberation Theology, for instance, only fool themselves, or their followers. Jim Jones was not a Christian; he was a communist.

          • chrissss November 17, 2013, 7:15 pm

            So leftism, and atheism do go together even though one is political and the other is religious, But, Christianity and communism can’t go together because one is political and the other is religious?

            Every single freaking argument you have made is contradictory, in this thread.

          • chrissss November 17, 2013, 8:41 pm

            So Louis Wheeler, why when I call you out do you stop posting, I ave exposed your lies and contradictions and have asked you for proof on any of your claims yet you cannot or will not. So why do you keep posting on other things making more wild claims about things with no proof. Just stop, you look like a moron.

          • louis_wheeler November 17, 2013, 9:51 pm

            You are being childish. Neither of us is going to agree with the other. The problem is that you stopped making sense long ago. You just want to have the last word.

            I still have days ahead of me. I love to watch you twisting in the wind. Why is this YOUR fight?

          • chrissss November 17, 2013, 9:58 pm

            The only one who has been making sense is me, you take an argument and twist it until it fits your beliefs, I am not the only one who has proven this, the problem is you keep fighting and losing, yet are to idiotic to realize you have lost.

            This is my fight cause I have chosen it as my fight, that is my right, the reason I do is you attack atheist and profess your superior morality, which is in fact a lack of morality.

            Your words:

            “What do you believe in? Nothing? Just physical matter without any meaning? How dismal. How could you keep from committing suicide when life is so irrelevant to you?”

            “I do not hate Atheists, I pity them. They are too STUPID and INDOCTRINATED to know that they are politically conditioned. Christians are enjoined from hating anyone. We are supposed to love our enemy.”

            “I have problems with Atheists.”

            You believe that because I do not believe in GOD my life has no meaning and that because of that I have a hard time not killing myself. You insult atheist calling them stupid when they ask you to provide your evidence that you claim to have and for some reason refuse to. Yet they are stupid for not believing a lie created by man when empirical evidence shows that GOD is false. And finally because you profess to have a problem with atheist. So “F” you grow up and admit defeat, you sound like a religious NUT fanatic with no real intelligence.

            We get it Christians like you possess such a superior morality than any atheist could possibly have, you are above reproach and as such even though you claim “PROOF” of GOD we will accept your conclusion without such proof because you are so superior in intelligence and morality.

            And even though we have proof of Christians being violent in their basic nature, we accept that modern day Christians are not like that at all, even though there is no proof of any morality in any church in the history, be it modern or ancient. We will accept your word that such is true and that any statement you make, because you are Christian iherently is truthful because you believe in a magic man that has abandoned you ( or maybe he just didn’t abandon you he just never existed in the first place and this is your way of justifying having no proof, by saying GOD doesn’t talk to us anymore).

          • louis_wheeler November 18, 2013, 8:28 pm

            I did not attack Atheists. I merely disagreed with their arguments.

            I don’t have to provide proof. I don’t care what silly beliefs you have. I never said that I had a proof which would satisfy you, merely that I had one which was sufficient for me.

            Believe what you want to believe. But you cannot avoid the consequences. You are so bigoted that nothing you say makes sense.

          • louis_wheeler November 17, 2013, 8:58 pm

            Politics and belief often go together as part of the same world view. Christians tend to have conservative politics.

            I agree that Atheism is a false religion. But it is a faith that is in accord with Socialism. If you make Society, the government or some ideology into a God, then how can you be a Christian?

            Have you never heard of Nihilism? It is a tactic used by the communists to destroy religion. Atheism is merely its verbal articulation.

          • chrissss November 17, 2013, 9:27 pm

            Let’s get something straight here, RELIGION and POLITICS are separate, there is no way you can ever combine the two, if you do then you have to accept that democracy is a Christian thing and democracy is one of the most evil creations of man.

          • louis_wheeler November 18, 2013, 8:21 pm

            Religion and Politics are not separate. Only a fool would think so.

            I also disagree with democracy, because it quickly turns into Tyranny. The US government was founded as a constitutionally limited Republic which is not the same thing. Was Christianity involved in the founding>? Sure. The fact that salvation is individual lent itself to the belief that common people could rule themselves. That is, we didn’t need a king.

            God can be honored wherever love is. A church is not a building. It is just people; it where two or more people gather in God’s name.

        • Tim Panogo November 15, 2013, 6:12 pm

          No athiest claims the right to force you to believe anything at all. That dubious distinction belongs to the faith-based community.

          • louis_wheeler November 15, 2013, 7:10 pm

            Jesus, you are bigoted. You cannot come to God except as an individual expression of faith. That is what free will is all about. If there were coerced conversions in the past, God would have nothing to do with them. You cannot make someone love you. Loving Christ and God is what Christianity is about.

            You don’t know what the two greatest commandments are.

          • Tim Panogo November 15, 2013, 7:38 pm

            Lol. Did you just take Jesus’s name in vain? tsk tsk. And as a lover of liberty, I don’t subscribe to ANY commandments. None have authority to command me in anything. Only slaves accept commandments.

          • louis_wheeler November 15, 2013, 8:17 pm

            Don’t be ridiculous; that was part of prayer. “Jesus, help us from ignorant people.”

            You are what you love, Tim. If you love God, that does not make you a slave. What God’s commandments do is keep us from being stupid and short sighted. Acting like a two year old.

            You can tell how civilized a man is by what he will not allow himself to do. We all have impulses toward counter productive childish behavior. But, God’s commandments help remind us of what works, historically. We disobey at our peril.

            Libertarians tend to get into trouble, because they have so little self restraint. They don’t respect the law, society or culture. No society can prosper if the people are not predictable. Yes, we need freedom, but we also need duty, honor, respect, kindness, propriety and love.

          • Tim Panogo November 15, 2013, 8:33 pm

            If god is worthy of love, then let him be loved. But why then, the COMMANDMENT to love him or else? What self-respecting human would ever utter such a thing? Yet god does, and those who accept it become a slave to his will….or rather the interpretation of his will by whatever clergy or scripture you accept as true.

            If your nature is so corrupt that you need these commandments to keep you in line, then I suppose it is best that you continue believing. Unbelievers, however, find themselves perfectly capable of determining good or bad on their own.

          • louis_wheeler November 15, 2013, 9:00 pm

            “Or Else?”

            That’s you talking, not God. Listening to God is being cautionary; it means acting like an adult. One definition of a monster is “a two year old mind in an adult body.” A monster is all about having power without restraint.

            Is the Law of Gravity, cruel? No. It is just a fact of our physical universe. Is God’s law cruel? No, but there is a price for disobeying. God allows us to get what we deserve. If you do immature, stupid or counter productive things, the results will catch up to you.

            Are you against a commandment which says to honor truth, justice, love and respect? If you do, then you want to allow your self the right to lie, bear false witness, hate and disrespect. I’m saying that those things are socially dangerous. Other people will kill you if you do enough of that, just to protect themselves.

          • Tim Panogo November 15, 2013, 9:18 pm

            I am against ALL commandments, and yes, I do allow myself, as you say, “the right to lie, bear false witness, hate and disrespect.” I would lie to save an innocent life. I would bear false witness for the same reason. I truly hate corruption and evil, and have a healthy disrespect for many people.

            But now, I must end this exchange. In your last sentence, you have made veiled threats to do me harm, and in doing so have shown yourself to be much like the god you worship. Let all see that it is the faithful who justify and resort to violence when they lose their arguments. I will not be threatened. Good day to you.

          • louis_wheeler November 15, 2013, 10:45 pm

            You’ve declared yourself an amoral person. You will find justifications to excuse any immoral act you desire. Any civilized person should think of you as dangerous. You cannot be trusted.

            You are being paranoid about the idea that I am threatening you. I don’t care enough about you to harm you. Just keep your distance and we’ll be fine.

          • chrissss November 17, 2013, 7:12 pm

            Amoral, as opposed to being moral, as in moral Christians, as in people who have proven they will kill, steal and torture to get what they want and force you to believe what they do. If that’s a moral population, then ty for calling me an amoral person, I appreciate it.

          • louis_wheeler November 17, 2013, 8:47 pm

            All humans can kill, steal and torture. Some people make it an article of faith that they are allow to do so. The Muslims claim this right, so do the collectivists. Christians do not. People who falsely claim to be Christians do.

            I never said you were amoral, chrissss. I said that Tim had declared himself so. But, if the same shoe fits you.

          • chrissss November 17, 2013, 9:25 pm

            Some people don’t even make it an article of faith to kill, steal and torture they just do, like the christians, at least the muslims claim it as a religious belief and don’t try and lie or hide it.

          • louis_wheeler November 18, 2013, 8:11 pm

            Christians do not claim a right to act immorally. You are deluded if you think that they do. Not everyone who claims to be a Christian is one.

            There is the problem of sin. We are all sinners. Every Christian fails to live up to his faith, but at least he tries to be good. His failures are hypocrisy, only if he does not try to be better. That is, he doesn’t really believe. That is what makes him a false Christian.

            Evil people often hide behind a faith they do not possess. Is not the world better off when people try to be good, rather than think that they have a right to be evil, such as the Muslims do?

          • chrissss November 17, 2013, 7:42 pm

            Your words:

            “Are you against a commandment which says to honor truth, justice, love and respect? If you do, then you want to allow your self the right to lie, bear false witness, hate and disrespect. I’m saying that those things are socially dangerous. Other people will kill you if you do enough of that, just to protect themselves.”

            Just like Christians, you don’t believe in honor, truth or justice. You lie, YOU bear false witness, you hate and you disrespect.

            False witness: You believe in GOD and confess that he exists, that is bearing false witness, as you have never witnessed him.

            Disrespect: “I do not hate Atheists, I pity them. They are too STUPID and INDOCTRINATED to know that they are politically conditioned. Christians are enjoined from hating anyone. We are supposed to love our enemy.”

            Hate: “What do you believe in? Nothing? Just physical matter without any meaning? How dismal. How could you keep from committing suicide when life is so irrelevant to you?”

            “I have problems with atheists”

            Lie: “I never said that “anyone who disbelieves in GOD is stupid, indoctrinated and pitiful, so that they live a dismal existence and should commit suicide.”

          • louis_wheeler November 17, 2013, 8:41 pm

            I don’t believe in anything you just said. It was so hysterical that no comment is necessary.

            I have problems with anyone who lies, distorts, defames and indoctrinates. You are wrong. The question is whether or not you are honestly wrong.

          • chrissss November 17, 2013, 8:55 pm

            That entire post, was based on your previous comments, I simply copied and pasted your posts, so if it sounds hysterical you are right, because it is all your words. Lol, ty at least you can recognize that your posts are hysterical.

          • louis_wheeler November 18, 2013, 7:58 pm

            But, you ripped my comments out of context and placed a false spin on them.

            My position is simple: you cannot prove that God does not exist and there are harmful effects of not believing in God.

            You are a perfect example of the latter. You haven’t a clue as to what the rules of logic are, so you make absurd and defamatory comments. Your comments on religion are false or incomplete. They contain no nuance, no understanding.

          • chrissss November 17, 2013, 6:58 pm

            I believe in aliens, I believe that Religious “NUTS” have confused these aliens with “GODS”. Aliens have created every aspect of our civilization, and religion is simply a way to explain aliens. I believe that aliens being very intelligent, and having learned from their past gave us “GUIDELINES” not “COMMANDMENTS”, to be a better civilization, and that man mistook these guidelines as such.

          • louis_wheeler November 17, 2013, 8:37 pm

            Believe in any false belief you want. It doesn’t affect me.

  • Tim Panogo November 14, 2013, 9:57 pm

    Why should the ridiculous be free from mockery? Have you forgotten how Christians behaved when they yielded true power, and it was submission or the sword? The power of evidence has generally humbled them, much to the good of the world in general. A little humility from the faithful is in order.

    • louis_wheeler November 15, 2013, 5:07 pm

      So, you are saying that the Atheists have the right to act as doctrinaire as some religious people once did? You need to re-read your history. You are not talking about America where we had hundreds of competing religious sects, so none of them could have total control. Atheists could survive in 18th century America.

      • Tim Panogo November 15, 2013, 6:09 pm

        Athiests have the right to point out the ridiculousness of religious doctrines, or are you afraid of such freedom of expression? Simply because you claim that god speaks to your prophets, that does not exempt you from criticism and well deserved ridicule.

        • louis_wheeler November 15, 2013, 6:42 pm

          And we have the right to point out the logical absurdity of Atheism. It is the Atheists who are suppressing the discourse. Why are you afraid that people will have different opinions from yours? Why do you use personal attacks and slurs? Do you think contempt will persuade anyone?

          • Tim Panogo November 15, 2013, 7:42 pm

            I’ve not personally attacked you, just your ideas. And I do hold your ideas in contempt, and have no interest in persuading you. The benefit of this discourse is for the audience to behold your revealing, if not predictable, reactions.

          • louis_wheeler November 15, 2013, 7:54 pm

            Why are you taking this personally? Why can’t you just shrug your shoulders? Why can’t you be content with other people disagreeing with you?

            All I’ve said is that the Atheists cannot logically prove their contentions. It’s a big world. There is plenty of room for disagreement so long as none of the disputants use force to gain his way. Your slurs and distortions don’t bother me. It just betrays your ignorance.

          • chrissss November 16, 2013, 7:16 am

            No where in history have wars, been fought in the name of atheism. Wars are most always involving some sort of religion, hell even George W. called these wars a holy war. The FACT is when religion is involved at some point violence erupts, one only needs to look at the mormons, they tried living peacefully, they even have the majority of the same beliefs, yet what did the good ole christians do. Oh thats right they persecuted them and ran them west. So when you have such a rich history of becoming violent when someone disagrees with your “belief” than expect to be ridiculed, and a belief that is so utterly retarded at that, then expect those with clearer and sharper minds tell you how retarded those beliefs are. I mean hell you force god into everything, us atheists are just there to remind you, that you may as well believe in the tooth fairy and aliens cause honestly, both of those are more plausible. So once you remove god from everything including gov’t, and remove it from our money then suck it up cause we won’t let up. BTW, from now on I refer to your god as the easter bunny.

            “Easter Bunny, bless america, the land that I love, stand beside her and guide her…”

            In the Easter Bunny we trust…

            …One Nation under The Easter Bunny…

          • louis_wheeler November 16, 2013, 8:22 am

            That is true that wars were not fought for Atheism; because Atheism is a fraud, a tactic. Instead, people mostly fought wars for political power and money. But, political ideas affected history. Fascism and communism were a powerful con games, albeit there were true believers like Trotsky. Totalitarianism has had a long history, in Sumer, Egypt and Peru.

            You have too many errors in your thinking for me to correct, even if you were open minded. Or had a mind.

          • chrissss November 16, 2013, 7:09 pm

            Lol, it’s too funny, do I need to point out your glaring errors??

            Yea atheism is the fraud, I’m not asking for money to support a figment of my imagination, I’m not starting wars in the name of the Easter Bunny. Religous ideas have shaped human history far more that political ones or atheism, and not for the better.

          • louis_wheeler November 17, 2013, 2:43 am

            The Russian Revolution killed 120 million people. Religion was not involved. World War Ii killed 50 million people in Europe. Religion was not involved. Pol Pot’s Khmer Rouge killed 3 million Cambodians. Religion was not involved. What was? It was socialist Ideology. Socialists, by necessity, are atheists.

            Except for Islam’s war, religion was not involved most wars in the last 500 years. Greed, exploitation, power and money were.

          • chrissss November 17, 2013, 5:56 am

            You truly are an idiot.

            Religion was not the cause of WW1. And on the Western Front there was certainly no religious aspect to what went on. However, the Western Front was not the only front in the War. Elsewhere, there was fighting in territories that had formed part of the Ottoman Empire, and while WW1 was going on there are certainly reports of religiously-motivated genocide. The Ottomans were reported to have killed tens, possibly hundreds of thousands of people who were members of the Assyrian Community, whose religious affiliation was mainly Christian. There are similar reports of genocide by Ottomans against Christian Greek and Armenian Communities.

            Also, one only needs to look at the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, to prove your theory that most wars in the last 500 years were not religiously motivated. How so? The muslims attacked us because we are infidels, infidels are non believers. Socialists are not necessarily atheist in your example of pol pot he was a Buddhist, the only reason why most socialist societies and communist societies ban religion is because religion is deemed to be the root cause of so many problems. Socialism does not = atheism, and your argument to the contrary is a leap, and just shows how much you hate atheists.

          • louis_wheeler November 17, 2013, 7:31 am

            Don’t you know how to read?

            I never said that wars were caused by Atheism. I gave you a list of modern wars which were not caused by religion.

            And except for the Muslims, none of the current 130 wars are caused by religion either. These wars are less about Islam than about a murderous Arab culture. How does this tar Christians? Not all religions are the same.

            There are a number of reasons for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. The NeoCons who promoted both wars are not Christians. Those wars were about maintaining the US’s role as the world’s policeman. Muslims had just destroyed the World Trade Center, and the NeoCons wanted revenge.

            The Muslims are not attacking us because of religion, but out of a cultural inferiority complex. They are part of a dying culture. Their birth rates are worse than the Europeans now; Iran is at 1.2 children per woman. 2.1 is maintenance.

            Pol Pot was not a practicing Buddhist. He was a communist; that is why he killed his people. The Khmer Rouge killed the civilized Cambodians, so they could create a peasant’s paradise.

            Socialism is collectivist; Christianity is individualist. They cannot mix, except as a fraud.

            I do not hate Atheists, I pity them. They are too stupid and indoctrinated to know that they are politically conditioned. Christians are enjoined from hating anyone. We are supposed to love our enemy.

            Wars are complex matters; there is no single reason. Collectivists, Fascists and Communists make little pretense of believing in God. Hitler attacked the Catholics along with the Jews.

            Besides, anyone can make a pretense of faith for political reasons. Does Obama believe in Christianity? I doubt it; attending Trinity Church was a political tactic.

          • chrissss November 17, 2013, 6:03 pm

            Wow, Lol, you really are incapable of intelligent thought.

            Infidel (literally “one without faith”), Osama Bin Laden, and the Taliban, in just about every message to America, used this word to state the reason they were attacking us. So tell me when the person who declared this war, says he did so because we are a people without faith, how do you draw the conclusion that this is not about faith. Had we been a Muslim country, following muslim customs, I highly doubt we would have been attacked. Why did the people who attacked the world trade center do so?? It’s important cause this is what started the war, oh yea religion.

            Was Pol Pot a Buddhist?? Yes or no? BTW, communism are 2 separate things one is political one is religious, and they are not exclusive of one another.

            Do you know that Obama does not believe in Christianity, do you know it is all political,?? If it was political then that proves a point that in order to gain mass favor he relied on Christianity which is what GOV’T is primarily.

            Does Christianity really mean you are smart?

            Does Christianity make you superior to an Atheist?

            Socialism is collectivist; Christianity is individualist. They cannot mix, except as a fraud.Really? You throw the word fraud around alot I don’t think it means what you think it does.

            I do not hate Atheists, I pity them. They are too stupid and indoctrinated to know that they are politically conditioned. Christians are enjoined from hating anyone. We are supposed to love our enemy.

            Your argument makes no sense, I would have to disagree and say that most atheist are far more intelligent than your average christian, the majority of all your great minds of history were atheist, Steven Hawking, Thomas Edison etc. Full list here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists_in_science_and_technology. If atheist were politically conditioned they wouldn’t be atheist they would be christian, all these things you despise, aren’t atheist in nature but christian. Also who is the one to stupid, the one who with his knowledge of the universe questions whether there is a GOD or the one who with knowledge of nothing believes there has to be one, and that anyone who doesn’t is stupid.

            Wars ARE complex matters, but even to the average Joe (which is not you, you are a below average Joe) the current war is religious in nature.

            Your argument for birth rates and all this other non sense doesn’t prove this war is not religious in nature. It would be the same as me saying this, the people of iraq and afghanistan typically have darker skin than us and they live in hotter climate than us, therefore they are attacking us.

            You are incapable of rational thought,I will repeat this YOU ARE INCAPABLE OF RATIONAL THOUGHT.

            And finally can I read??

            Except for Islam’s war, religion was not involved most wars in the last 500 years. Greed, exploitation, power and money were.

            Yup, sure can.

          • louis_wheeler November 17, 2013, 7:12 pm

            Not all religions are the same. The Muslims are a special case. The Arab culture is in collapse which causes them to strike out at anyone who is different. They want to destroy the West, but they also want to destroy other Muslim sects, as well. The Saudi Sunni’s tried to get the US to destroy the Alawite Muslim Leadership of Syria. I think the US should hold back and let them destroy each other.

            Regarding Pol Pot; People lie. They pretend to have religion beliefs which they don’t follow. The principals on which Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge followed were not Buddhist. Mass murder is common among communists. The Russian communists killed 20 million peasant farmers in the Ukraine, the Kulaks, because they would not be collectivized.

            Obama shows no evidence by his actions of being a Christian. He does pay lip service to it, but all his actions are Fascist. That is, he believes in unlimited governmental power to serve his political ends. He wants the federal government to direct everything which goes on in America, economically and socially.

            Smart people can believe in stupid things; things which they cannot prove. The popular culture can blind them to any evidence which would change their minds. They would lose their friends if they used their brains.

            What the Average Joe in America believes is often wrong.

            Let me rephrase that: you can read, but you cannot understand. You read in order to find ammunition to throw back at your opponent. This is quite apelike of you.

          • chrissss November 17, 2013, 7:32 pm

            The ARAB culture is not collapsing, Neither is the MUSLIM one, I would go as far as to say that the AMERICAN culture is closer to collapse than the ARAB one. The muslims attacked us because of religion, I have proof yet you still insist on denying it, yet you insist on believing in that which you have no proof.

            I understand completely, I posted your comments, and have proven what you say and where you contradict yourself, you cannot prove otherwise. Just seriously STFU, you try and act and sound intelligent, but you are incapable of intelligent thought, it’s obvious to anyone reading your comments, and I make it easy for them by re posting your comments.

            You believe in GOD which was proof enough you are incapable of thinking for yourself, yet you insist on providing me with more proof, by continuing to post.

          • louis_wheeler November 17, 2013, 8:04 pm

            The Arab culture is collapsing, but we must wait for proof to come in. You would not believe any evidence or logic which I can present. So, why waste my time?

            Why am I replying to you, at all? I have no belief that you will ever change your mind. But, other people may be listening to this conversation. They may not have closed minds. Error needs to be confronted, as Edmond Burke might say, or evil people will win.

          • chrissss November 17, 2013, 8:20 pm

            You provide 0 proof of anything, if you did then this would all be a non issue. The arab culture is not in collapse, if so provide proof. If error needs to be confronted then please provide me proof of my errors. You haven’t, you can’t and you won’t. The whole problem is that you believe everything that has no proof yet you believe in nothing that has proof.

            “The Arab culture is collapsing, but we must wait for proof to come in. You would not believe any evidence or logic which I can present. So, why waste my time?”

            So your words, you have no proof that the Arab culture is collapsing yet you claim they are.

            LMFAO are you insane??

          • louis_wheeler November 17, 2013, 9:21 pm

            No, whenever leftists are denied, they say that their opponent is insane. Typical.

            This is not about me. It’s about what you can prove. Doubt all you want, but you can prove nothing.

      • JSebastian November 15, 2013, 6:11 pm

        It is about being accorded equal natural rights of man free from irrational prejudice inspired by religious belief; this is precisely why the country was founded and why the creators of the Constitution made sure to include a provision for a secular state.

        • louis_wheeler November 15, 2013, 6:35 pm

          It;s obvious that we are reading different history books. The founders were not disbelievers; there were church services in the halls of congress on Sunday. Nor was the US a secular state. Jefferson believed that a hundred sects lead to religious diversity since not one of them could gain political control and thus, oppress the others. His “doctrine of the separation of church and state” was that the state had no authority to interfere in religious matters.

          • chrissss November 16, 2013, 7:21 am

            So because there were church services in the halls of congress means what?? That religion isn’t utter BS?? So because a bunch of guys who in a few moments of lucidity wrote on a piece of paper some great ideas that means what?? Good job Thomas J. your idea that religous equality wouldn’t allow for political control thats awesome, guess what you failed, cause guess who controls the country politically, oh thats right christians. Your arguments fall apart to easy.

          • louis_wheeler November 16, 2013, 8:10 am

            Church services in the halls of congress means that the people in the founders day saw nothing wrong with the practice. There was no separation of church and state, then. That is a Leftist fantasy.

            Religion can be BS to you, because you are ignorant. You only know Leftist talking points, not any history.

            Who controls the government is not a simple matter. The Progressives of both parties have controlled this country since 1913, with a few minor exceptions.

            Jefferson was talking about religious diversity preventing tyranny. Instead, we have socialist tyranny.

          • chrissss November 16, 2013, 7:18 pm

            Lol, please point out my lack of knowledge of history,you know everyone so well, you must know my educational history, so please do illustrate. I know, I know, your god told you everything you need to know about me, the only one who is ignorant is you. When did you stop believing in Santa Clause?? When you were old enough to know better, unfortunately that’s the limit of your intelligence, you stopped growing mentally at the same time you stopped believing in Santa. How do I know this? You still believe in GOD, once I grew up and was old enough to think LOGICALLY for myself I stopped believing in an invisible man.

            Pretty simple to prove too. According to your historical documents aka. the bible. God talked freely to men, helped man guided him. When was the last time you heard GOD talking to someone. Oh yea, that’s right, the last time someone killed someone and said the voices in my head told me to do it. If GOD existed and so loved you why did he abandon you?? If he is all powerful, why does he need your money?? The bible was not written by GOD or even inspired by him, it was written by men, and organized by the Vatican. Using only the books they deemed necessary to keep control of you, don’t believe me? Do some research.

          • louis_wheeler November 17, 2013, 2:34 am

            I don’t need to do research. If you have no connection to God then, then you are a lost soul. You are blind. Your inability to see God makes it impossible for anyone to help you, because you must want help. And you do not.

            You cannot prove that God does not exist any more than I can prove that he does. Even if I had proof, you would not listen to it. None of your arguments are logical. None of your slurs and accusations have truth in them.

            What do you believe in? Nothing? Just physical matter without any meaning? How dismal. How could you keep from committing suicide when life is so irrelevant to you?

          • chrissss November 17, 2013, 6:00 am

            Lol, you’re too funny, you have an inability to think logically or make clear arguments, you rely on insults and such as your argument. Let me ask you do you believe in evolution, dinosaurs, aliens??

            The reason I ask is we have proof these things exist, yet you do not believe them. Why is that you will believe in some figment of your imagination, but you refuse to believe in dinosaurs, aliens or evolution. You do not believe because you are willing to suspend proof in your belief in something you, yourself admit can not be proven. So just by this argument it is obvious to me that you are clearly incapable of rational or logical thoughts.

            I would think living in a fantasy world without the ability to think rationally or logically would be even more dismal of an existence, and I would be more likely to commit suicide if I lived in your insane world.

          • louis_wheeler November 17, 2013, 6:54 am

            You’re the one doing the insulting.

            Yes, a person can believe in evolution and God. Darwin did. It’s all about what you can prove and many of the positions taken by radical evolutionists are questionable. The fossil record is sketchy; we have no missing links. Some scientists have been making wild leaps of faith. Natural selection does not disprove God’s existence, since God could have invented it.

            I’ll wait until we know more. I’ve seen no evidence which proves that space aliens exist. I read science fiction, but come on.

            You can be rational and believe in God. I’ve said that Atheism is inconsistent with the rules of logic, so it must be unprovable. You would need the powers of a god to know for certain that something does not exist in the universe.

            We disagree. You keep making wild accusation without proof. Which of us is being rational? I think it is me.

          • chrissss November 17, 2013, 5:26 pm

            We disagree. You keep making wild accusation without proof. Which of us is being rational? I think it is me.

            Lol, do you see the irony here??

            It’s ok for you to make an argument with no proof simply because you BELIEVE in GOD, but anyone else is irrational.

            You can be rational and believe in God. I’ve said that Atheism is inconsistent with the rules of logic, so it must be unprovable. You would need the powers of a god to know for certain that something does not exist in the universe.

            I want you to take GOD completely out of any of your arguments, until then you are a crackpot. The fossil record is sketchy huh? Their mere existence is proof they existed, yet even when confronted with this evidence you deny it. You can’t use the very thing you believe in as proof that it eithe can or cannot exist, you can’t say that without the power of god you can’t disprove me, that is a weak place to argue from. Let me change your wording and you will get my point. You cannot prove Santa Clause does not exist unless you wield the power of Santa himself.

            You have proven you are incapable of rational thought, you prove that you don’t believe in dinosaurs but you do believe in GOD, when there is empirical evidence that one exists and the other does not. You say that I make wild accusations without proof and therefore I am irrational, yet your entire argument is based entirely on a belief and no proof. So I will answer your question.

            You keep making wild accusation without proof. Which of us is being rational? I think it is me.

            This works more in my favor than yours freaking crackpot, Btw you lost all credibility when you started saying atheist were better off committing suicide

          • chrissss November 17, 2013, 6:09 pm

            The fact is you think there is a GOD, and anyone who doesn’t believe in that GOD is stupid, indoctrinated, pitiful, lives a dismal existence and should commit suicide. You just prove my point that It’s the Christians who are the Gorillas. Atheist aren’t saying you believe in GOD you should just die, this just shows the inherent violent nature to one who opposes your views. You are not intelligent, you are very good at google searches, but you are not intelligent. My proof?? You believe in GOD even when there is no evidence, yet you do not believe in things for which there is evidence, your a fool.

          • louis_wheeler November 17, 2013, 6:28 pm

            I never said that “anyone who disbelieves in GOD is stupid, indoctrinated and pitiful, so that they live a dismal existence and should commit suicide.”

            I said that there are consequences of disbelief. When you believe in Nothing, you often have nothing to live for. You Atheists are just wrong. I pity you because you have nothing in your life which is real.

            Nor am I being violent. I don’t have to kill Atheists: they will kill themselves. There is evidence of God’s existence, but it must be accepted on faith. Since you have no faith, you cannot see the evidence. I am merely saying that you have no proof, just an erroneous opinion.

          • chrissss November 17, 2013, 6:46 pm

            You’re words:

            “What do you believe in? Nothing? Just physical matter without any meaning? How dismal. How could you keep from committing suicide when life is so irrelevant to you?”

            “I do not hate Atheists, I pity them. They are too STUPID and INDOCTRINATED to know that they are politically conditioned. Christians are enjoined from hating anyone. We are supposed to love our enemy.”

            Evidence and faith are exclusive of one another, no amount of BS talk can make it so. There is only evidence if you have faith?? Lol, keep talking you sound like an idiot the longer you talk. You are contradictory, you also deny you said things when you obviously did.

          • louis_wheeler November 17, 2013, 7:57 pm

            I said that I do have problems with Atheists: they say they have proof which doesn’t exist. They use false logic, slurs, intimidation and indoctrination. There is plenty of evidence which you refuse to see.

          • chrissss November 17, 2013, 8:15 pm

            Please, again, show me this proof. If you have proof then why would you hide it?? If it proves your case I would be throwing it out there and saying hahahaha, your wrong see this proof.

            You can’t and therefore, you make wild claims that you can’t substantiate, on aliens, dinosaurs, physics. Prove one thing that you have claimed please, otherwise stfu.

          • louis_wheeler November 17, 2013, 9:18 pm

            I have said that the rules of logic insist that you have no proof that God is unreal. Did that argument convince you? No. No proof would ever convince you. You merely want to expose my beliefs as being ridiculous. No thanks.

            It’s not my beliefs which are absurd; you believe that you can prove the impossible: a negative case. No one can.

          • chrissss November 17, 2013, 9:46 pm

            No because your belief is as ridiculous as my belief in aliens is, and you have no problem saying my believing in aliens is ridiculous. But see this is not our problem, you profess to have evidence that GOD exists, after having repeatedly saying GODS existence, cannot be proven.

            “I have found sufficient evidence to prove to me that God exists.”

            Again these are your words copied and pasted, all I have been asking you to do is provide this proof you profess to have. I have more proof aliens exist and have visited our planet than you have of GODS existence. The rules of logic you so claim to use are not what you think they are, read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic

            My proof of aliens:


            That’s far more than you have provided here, also the Stargate series is far more plausible than the fantasy book called the BIBLE.

          • louis_wheeler November 18, 2013, 7:37 pm

            Be happy with your faith, chrissss. I’m a long time reader of science fiction; I was reading this stuff in the 1960s, long before you were born. The promoters of these contentions string together a lot of historic artifacts along with dubious speculations. It’s interesting and fun, but the proofs are mere conjecture. They beg the question. They depend on the gullible,

            The problem with not believing in God is not that you believe in nothing. People tend to fill the void in their live where God would reside with the craziest things. It could be in Space Aliens, or Socialism, a contention that human being are little better than ants, or Scientism, which believes that science has the answers to all questions or in Statism, the belief that the state can solve all problems.

            What you believe is not interesting to me. I merely wanted to confront your falsehoods.

          • louis_wheeler November 17, 2013, 9:25 pm

            You don’t know what you are talking about. Worse, you read into my comments things I never said.

          • louis_wheeler November 17, 2013, 6:12 pm

            I am not making wild claims. You are just not listening.

            The rules of logic say that you cannot prove a negative case. This means that you cannot prove that God does not exist. You can have an opinion on the matter, just as I do, but have no proof. I have no issue with doubters, skeptics or agnostics, because they are merely stating a personal opinion which may be wrong. They don’t hold to a conviction which they cannot prove, as the Atheists do.

            Before the Progressives, Socialists, Fascists and Marxists took over Western Universities, most public intellectuals and scientists, were believers. There are questions about what our current set of intellectuals can prove. You want to dismiss anyone who believes in God from the argument. You would dismiss anyone from the discussion who has a dissenting opinion. That is censorship.

            Where did you get the idea that I don’t believe in dinosaurs? I never said anything of the sort. Your opinions about Christions are wacky. I believe that BOTH the radical Evolutionists and the Creationists are in error. The question is about how much. There are gaping holes in both arguments. There is much which cannot be proven.

            I asked what you believed in. If you believe in nothing or in nonsense such as Socialism or Scientism, how do you keep from being self destructive? You may not want to be suicidal, but you have no values. The highest suicide rates in the world are in Scandinavia, where there is little faith in God.

            Even a glance at history shows that societies which lose their faith in God collapse into decadence, effetism and despair. Their birth rates collapse as it has all across Europe, Russia and the Muslim world. These are real effects of a lack of belief.

          • chrissss November 17, 2013, 6:36 pm

            Lol, the fossil records are sketchy, leading one to believe you doubt the existence. Religion does not mean you have morals, if anything history has proven a lack of morals, this is especially the case in the history of Christians, as they murdered, tortured and who knows what else anyone who didn’t believe in GOD. I have morals that in all likely hood surpass yours, I will not kill you if you are not atheist, I will not torture you, as a matter of fact I have saved you Christians (which is more than what GOD has done) from death, I was a firefighter, and a USN vet.

            What do I believe in I believe in aliens, I believe our entire civilization is due to aliens, and that man has confused aliens as gods.

            You have no problem with atheist yet you believe they should commit suicide. You just keep proving how illogical you are.

          • louis_wheeler November 17, 2013, 7:36 pm

            The fossil records could lead to many interpretations. I just don’t buy the Radical Evolutionist’s. We shouldn’t be rushing to judgement.

            Atheists and Collectivists show no evidence of having morals, merely expediency. False or pretend Christians may not have any, either. Some false Christians have been involved in mass murder in the past. You have no clue as to whom is false or true. So, you tar every Christian with the same brush.

            I have seen no evidence that Space Aliens exist. I am reserving judgement until I have proof. The Physics are against this possibility. Space is too wide to easily cross. Space Aliens would need a power source far greater than is reasonable or a way of bypassing or escaping the laws of the universe. If they were so rich why would they be bothering with us?

            I am saying that there are consequences of false beliefs: one of these is suicide. I’m not advising anyone to do it. I’m merely relating what is happening.

          • chrissss November 17, 2013, 8:11 pm

            So your saying believing in GOD has the consequence of suicide??

            “I have seen no evidence that Space Aliens exist. I am reserving judgement until I have proof. The Physics are against this possibility. Space is too wide to easily cross. Space Aliens would need a power source far greater than is reasonable or a way of bypassing or escaping the laws of the universe. If they were so rich why would they be bothering with us?”

            Based on what proof?? Based on our limited technologies?? Read up on space travel we have proven that warp speed is possible but due to our limited technology we cannot create it. Physics are not against, but for the possibility aliens exist, due to laws of physics aliens are more plausible than a GOD. What laws of the universe dictate that aliens cannot cross these great distances??

            “Atheists and Collectivists show no evidence of having morals, merely expediency. False or pretend Christians may not have any, either. Some false Christians have been involved in mass murder in the past. You have no clue as to whom is false or true. So, you tar every Christian with the same brush.”

            It’s easy to divorce yourself from those who openly commit acts contrary to what your religion proclaims, it’s quite another when your entire religion is predicated on violence, violence to the non believers, violence from your god etc.

            Christians show no evidence of having morals either, simply because you profess it in righting doesn’t make it so, your religion is one of the most immoral creations of man.

            Also where is the evidence that atheists have no morals,I can prove Christianity doesn’t whats your proof??

            Fossils can not be misinterpreted, by that logic then the existence of Jesus can be misinterpreted. How do you misinterpret a body in a grave?? Either that person existed or he didn’t. How do you misinterpret a dinosaur skeleton, was it somehow just a random act of nature, where a rock just happened to form in the shape of a skeleton, and not just once but many many times in the same shape all over the country?? When carbon dated, which is scientifically proving something that carbon dating proves it existed millions of years ago. How exactly can you misinterpret this??

            Your an idiot, if it were me I’d stop talking. But please keep talking and I’ll keep proving you are a moron.

          • louis_wheeler November 17, 2013, 9:10 pm

            I said that believing in nothing or in nonsense has its consequences. You are a good proof of that.

            If you were me, then I would have no reason to talk. I would agree with myself.

            What can you prove? Can you prove that God does not exist? No. Can you prove that all Christians are immoral? No. Can you prove that Jesus did not exist? No.

            All you can do is doubt, doubt, doubt. And that is no proof.

          • chrissss November 17, 2013, 9:16 pm

            Can you prove aliens do not exist, can you prove physics keeps them from coming to earth, can you prove GOD does exist,can you prove all atheists are immoral. No all you do is doubt, doubt, doubt, doubt and doubt, and THAT is no proof.

            The consequences of not believing in god does have consequences, I have to deal with idiots who never grew up and are unquestioning in GOD, people who lie contradict and wish harm upon those who do not believe what they do i.e. YOU.

            You’re words:

            “What do you believe in? Nothing? Just physical matter without any meaning? How dismal. How could you keep from committing suicide when life is so irrelevant to you?”

            “I do not hate Atheists, I pity them. They are too STUPID and INDOCTRINATED to know that they are politically conditioned. Christians are enjoined from hating anyone. We are supposed to love our enemy.”

            “I have problems with Atheists.”

          • louis_wheeler November 18, 2013, 7:19 pm

            Space Aliens may exist, but I have seen no conclusive proof. I reserve judgement on the matter.

            I never said that I could prove that God exists, just that you could not prove that he didn’t. Nor did I say that all Atheists are immoral, but the evidence would lead to that conclusion.

            I have no problems with doubt, since that is part of the human condition, I merely disagree with people saying that they have proof when they can’t, logically.

            I have problems with anyone who distorts the truth.

          • chrissss November 17, 2013, 6:20 pm

            I’ll wait until we know more. I’ve seen no evidence which proves that space aliens exist. I read science fiction, but come on.

            Lol, do you see your illogical conclusion here that.

            Why not wait till we know more about GOD, you have seen no evidence that GOD exists, I read the BIBLE, but come on.

            Aslo Darwin never spoke of a GOD, he always used the word creator, also he always tried not to offend anyone lest he be killed for not believing in GOD.

          • louis_wheeler November 17, 2013, 7:50 pm

            There is no contradiction. It’s all about what you can prove. I have no issue with doubters, skeptics and Agnostics. I just believe that they are wrong.

            I have found sufficient evidence to prove to me that God exists. But, can I use that evidence on a closed minded person like you? No, So I don’t try. It’s just that other people may be reading these pages.

            Different ages have their quirks. The founders used the words “Providence and Creator” as a replacement for God. If there is a creator, who is it besides God?

            Neither he Founders, nor Darwin, believed that random change created the Universe. All of Classical Philosophy knew that a creation implied a creator, even if they used fancy words like “First mover.” Something had to start the Universe into motion, but what? This question belongs to Metaphysics or religion to solve, not science.

          • chrissss November 17, 2013, 7:58 pm

            Please, do provide this evidence, quit using the excuse that I am closed minded, if you have proof then present it. Im not the one who refuses to believe proof, you doubt, the existence of dinosaurs, whether you use words like “sketchy” or outright deny it.

            Provide this proof that you have that god exists or STFU and realize you are a fool for believing in a GOD that is a fairy tale.

          • louis_wheeler November 17, 2013, 9:03 pm

            Let’s not pay this game. Nothing I could say would convince you, would it?

            The burden of proof is not on me. I don’t care what you believe. But, nothing would persuade me to STFU in the face of lies. That’s you trying to censor again.

  • JdL November 14, 2013, 10:11 pm

    Dang, Paul, are you going to get all hung up on religion? I can accept that some people are theists, for reasons that apparently make good sense to them, but what’s the relevance to freedom? Why obsess about it?

    • louis_wheeler November 15, 2013, 5:23 pm

      So, you believe in censorship on the subject of religion? Merely mentioning the relation between religion and freedom should be forbidden? The authoritarians who would take away our freedom would force us into being Atheists, as well.

      • JdL November 15, 2013, 6:00 pm

        So, you believe in censorship on the subject of religion? Merely mentioning the relation between religion and freedom should be forbidden? The authoritarians who would take away our freedom would force us into being Atheists, as well.

        When I advise Paul not to spend his energies obsessing about religion, that’s “censorship” in your mind???

        Didn’t think it would be necessary, but since it apparently is:
        . This is Paul’s blog.
        . Paul can write about anything he wants.
        . Paul has enabled comments.
        . When I think that Paul is becoming obsessed with something barely relevant to the advancement of freedom, I’m likely to make a comment saying so.
        . Paul is free to ignore me.

        Have I left anything out? Oh yes:
        . You are free to equate my comment with support for “censorship”, nonsense though that may be.

        • louis_wheeler November 15, 2013, 7:01 pm

          Should fighting for freedom be confined to a limited area when our opponents want to suppress all dissent?

          Your criticism was tactical, which I say is an error. We must fight the Left in all the areas in which they attack us. This means that we must confront Antonio Gramsci’s Cultural Revolution. Part of that is to dismiss religion from the public arena. Even a secular Libertarian should oppose that.

          Asking questions forced you to clarify your position. Those questions do not denote my beliefs. You had to prove that you were not in favor of censorship. Is this a bad thing? I think not.

  • Tim November 14, 2013, 11:18 pm

    What we have here is a tale of two countries. One called the Good Ole USA and the other called France. One was founded by Christians, who were so concerned about rebellion that they took time to write the reasons for it. It is called the Declaration of Independence. The other had no such concern and wrote no such document. In fact, the French Revolution was entirely atheistic and anti-god. One is known for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The other is known for the “Reign of Terror.” One led to more than 200 years of freedom and the other to a dictatorship that lasted right up into the 1960’s. For all of those bullies of whatever stripe they be, I personally will take the nation founded under God with life and liberty for all, including slash and burn atheists. Those who think the mention of God is some great evil can have the French fries.

    • Tim Panogo November 14, 2013, 11:56 pm

      The great error you make is that this suppposed Christian country (USA) is now fast becoming one of the greatest violators of civil rights and liberty ever let loose on humankind. Will you deny that it is mostly the faithful who have voted for and supported this movement?

      • louis_wheeler November 15, 2013, 5:42 pm

        Your argument is confused. What civil rights and liberty are being violated? Where?

        • Tim Panogo November 15, 2013, 6:05 pm

          If you are unaware of ANY such examples, as you seem to be, then perhaps a little study is in order. Regardless,the point being made is that where civil rights and liberty are infringed in this country, the faithful are generally willing supporters.

          • louis_wheeler November 15, 2013, 6:14 pm

            I asked for specifics. If you have a case, you need to provide evidence.

            My concern is that Obama’s actions are affecting our civil rights and liberty. But, are you talking about them? Somehow, I don’t think so.

          • chrissss November 16, 2013, 7:26 am

            You contradict yourself, you ask what civil rights are being violated and where, then you turn around and say you are concerned that OBAMAS actions, not the gov’t (which is primarily christian) is taking away civil rights. Congress voted on the patriot act, congress can now decide to kill americans, congress has decided that due process for supposed TERRORISTS isn’t applicable, congress can decide you are a terrorist even without cause, congress….

            See where I am going here??

            Congress=Mostly christians

            Congress Does not = mostly atheists

          • louis_wheeler November 16, 2013, 8:01 am

            Yes, those are my concerns. I have no idea what Tim’s are. He should tell us, if he wants to prove a case. He can’t ask us to prove his.

            The government is not monolithic, let alone Christian; it is a battleground for forces. Obama represents the Social Democratic side of those forces. Politicians often lie; they pretend to be what they are not.

            It seems to me is that we have mostly, in Washington, left and right branches of one party: the Progressives. Progressives sometimes wear Christian clothing, but not their virtues.

            We have to be careful about who we are talking. The Republican leadership does not represent conservatives. The TEA Party is not part of the Republican (Right Progressive) leadership. They hate each other.

    • Doug Nusbaum January 11, 2014, 8:35 am

      Tell that to the native Americans whom the Christians butchered by the tens of thousands. Or to the whites that they enslaved. Nice thing about Christains. They do not discriminate but will and have cheerfully abused anybody if the opportunity presented itself, and it could make a profit.

    • Alan February 5, 2014, 6:05 pm

      Dude, at least TRY to get your facts straight. America’s founding fathers were merely “theists” at best, not Christians. Much of what caused the movement of people to America in the first place was to escape religious tyranny in Europe, either as atheists or because they had different religions from the mainstream, such as Christianity.

  • Thomas L. Knapp November 15, 2013, 1:57 am

    I suspect that “Hateful Atheist Syndrome” has the same root cause as “Hateful Libertarian/Anarchist Syndrome.”

    That is, when the only thing someone has to work with is a strong idea of what he doesn’t believe in, he tends to get irritable and to inflict that irritation on everyone around him.

    Of course, libertarian and anarchism contain the cures for their own similar syndromes — at some point, you notice that you need more than “I hate the state” and start developing a vision of what to replace it with, and those visions tend to have a lot in common.

    Recovery from Hateful Atheist Syndrome is presumably possible in similar form.

    • louis_wheeler November 15, 2013, 5:54 pm

      This is not about hating the state. It is about what uses the state is being put to. Those hateful Atheists are part of a plan to utterly transform America, socially and economically. You seem to have no problem when the change is merely political. But, our enemies want us to have no religious, political or social freedom. They are authoritarians using our political institutions to place us in chains. Obama is pronouncing unconstitutional Executive Orders which would change every facet of American life. The only question is whether or not he will get away with it.

  • FreeOregon November 15, 2013, 5:04 am

    Simon Critchley’s “Infinitely Demanding, Ethics of Commitment, Politics of Resistance” provides a useful framework for evaluating behaviors, destructive, passive, and actively anarchist.

  • Adam Hoisington November 15, 2013, 5:24 pm

    I just accept that I have no idea about the existence of god(s). I try to apply this kind of objective thought to everything, actually.For instance, I’m no physicist and so I don’t know with certainty the things they talk about either. If someday, I’m interested enough, I’ll learn for myself those details.

    However, I also realize that a scientist will hand be a microscope (or telescope) and invite me to verify the claims. Theists have no such ability to draft such an invitation. There is no known instrument that can examine a supernatural power conclusively. This doesn’t mean they are wrong. In fact, science doesn’t exclude the possibility of god and I don’t believe ever can. I mean, if we accept the idea of an “omnipotent” being, that pretty much means that being could potentially hide his existence forever if he so chose. That’s one thing omnipotence would allow, otherwise it’s not omnipotence.

    Anyway, just my thoughts on the subject. Great article, Mr. Rosenberg.

    • louis_wheeler November 15, 2013, 6:09 pm

      These are different areas of study. Scientists have made great gains of knowledge in the last five hundred years, but there are questions they cannot answer. What is the Good Life? How should a man treat his neighbors? What form of government leads to the most prosperity and well being of its subjects? What are the social effects of false ideas? What are the undesirable effects of a lack of religion?

  • chrissss November 16, 2013, 7:39 am

    Lol, the author of this article is a crackpot. He compares atheists to gorillas. WTF REALLY, dude just about every war was started by the belief in god and someone opposing your belief, blowing up abortion centers because of your BELIEFS (which BTW WTF is wrong with abortion, we need less people on this planet not more, we also need to stop life support and allow the elderly to just die), persecuting the MUSLIMS because of their beliefs. Who is the gorilla going around and actually killing people because they either opposed your beliefs or had a different belief. Your instigating crap and attacking atheist in this post cause they oppose you. So I want to let you know I believe in Santa Clause, and I will tell you why, he lives beyond this universe too, so does the tooth fairy and the easter bunny, I am 35 years old and I still believe this shit, is my belief ridiculous?? Stupid ape.

    Oh, and why did you all stop believing in santa?? When you were old enough to know better right?? Well guess what I am old enough and smart enough to know better. You believe in an invisible man, who is all knowing and all powerful, BUT he needs MONEY… for some reason GOD is great with miracles, parting the red sea, resurrection and all this but he just can’t seem to get his finances straight.. omg I Love George Carlin. Any intelligent human can see that religion was invented as a moral compass and has devolved into a money racket. If you opened your eyes you would see this, but then you might also see the state and the USA are only here for your money and they have already usurped their power we gave them.

    • louis_wheeler November 17, 2013, 7:43 am

      You haven’t a clue about what the author was writing. He was talking about how SOME Atheists act. Basically, they follow Saul Alinsky’s tactics in “Rules for Radicals” and viciously jump on their opponents with both feet. The Atheist’s arguments don’t have to make sense when they can intimidate their opponent. I personally prefer the word “Goons” to “Gorillas.” Those are slope foreheaded, violent humans. “Thugs” is a good word too.

      You don’t have a clue about Christianity either.

  • chrissss November 16, 2013, 7:23 pm

    Btw, the following argument you make:

    Last week I wrote an article entitled Are you a Gorilla or a God? In it, I explained that the worst of human behavior is gorilla-like and the best god-like. I went on to explain the gorilla side this way:

    Dominant gorillas seek status and the power to control others. The submissive apes seek to pass along their pain to the apes below them.

    Is so wrong it doesn’t IMHO even need to be pointed out. The worst of human behavior would be god like, a psychopath, money hungry bi-polar imaginary being who will kill you the first time you cross him. Yea that’s real benevolent. Also, all religion seeks status and power of other religions and people, so I would have to say religion, and god are gorillas.

    • louis_wheeler November 17, 2013, 2:46 am

      I dare say that you know nothing of religion or what motivates Christians.

      • chrissss November 17, 2013, 6:26 pm

        I dare say prove it.

        I dare say I know more about your religion than you do.

        If you don’t believe me let’s hash it out here, I was raised christian, I questioned religion and thusly, have developed my own LOGICAL conclusions. I studied and questioned every aspect of religion, much the same way a scientist does in the scientific method. Have you?? Have you ever really studied your religion, or have you simply taken the words of others at their face value??

        If you want to question my knowledge of a subject, or if I understand their motives, then don’t make accusations that are baseless. Challenge me, although I doubt you will, it leaves you open to being disproved and how insane you would have to be to believe in a god.

        • louis_wheeler November 17, 2013, 8:34 pm

          How can I prove what you don’t know? You show no evidence that you know anything about Christianity. Your statements are ridiculous.

          I suspect you were reared by false Christians. You may have studied religion, but it seems as though you did so with a closed mind. You are constantly making assertions about me which are false.

          Have I studied my own religion? Of course. I apply the most rigorous tests to my principles. I am neither indoctrinated nor unquestioning. There is much I don’t know, so I must place my trust in God.

          • chrissss November 17, 2013, 8:53 pm

            what proof have I given you at all that I know nothing of christianity?? What proof having I given you to believe I was raised by false christians?? What is a false christian?? You have no proof, you make these wild idiotic claims because I don’t believe in a GOD, that is your proof. If you want to have a religious challenge then let’s do it. I am willing. I am ready to take you to school on your professed religion, I know more about christianity then you know of your own life, of that I am sure.

            Why am I so sure, because I know what evidence you have to prove GOD exists and that is nothing, and that is the real reason why you won’t put it up here. Make all the wild claims you want you simply cannot provide any evidence that GOD exists.

            Earlier you were talking about bearing false witness and lying, you are doing both by claiming you have proof GOD exists. You tell me you are constrained and follow your religious beliefs, but it is apparent you are not as you are willing to lie and bear false witness to try and prove there is a GOD.

          • louis_wheeler November 17, 2013, 9:45 pm

            Why do you care about what i believe? Why must you attack other people’s faith? Why should we fight? How is my belief any skin off your nose?

            All I’ve done is tell the truth,. You have no proof of anything. You have a right to your opinion, but so do I. I don’t care what you believe. Go to hell in your own way.

          • chrissss November 17, 2013, 9:49 pm

            Because you attack atheists, and then when you are proven wrong you make this post.

            Your words:

            “What do you believe in? Nothing? Just physical matter without any meaning? How dismal. How could you keep from committing suicide when life is so irrelevant to you?”

            “I do not hate Atheists, I pity them. They are too STUPID and INDOCTRINATED to know that they are politically conditioned. Christians are enjoined from hating anyone. We are supposed to love our enemy.”

            “I have problems with Atheists.”

            and you have done everything but tell the truth, you have lied, contradicted and born false witness.

          • louis_wheeler November 18, 2013, 7:51 pm

            I did not attack Atheists; I merely disagreed with their arguments. They claim that they have proof that God does not exist. No one does. You say that I lie and bear false witness, when I merely disagree. You are arrogant and presumptuous when you will not credit that other people have a right to their opinions, however foolish.

            You can believe what you wish, no matter how ridiculous. I don’t care.

            I care about the truth, so I must confront lies when I perceive them.

  • John Bull November 17, 2013, 9:26 pm

    There seems to be confusion between the two concepts regarding idea of god, as in god exists, and the actions of those who claim to believe in god, as in god told me/us to do thus and such. They are completely different arguments. One concerns the idea that man is not the ultimate arbiter or source of power in the universe and the other merely shows man’s predilection toward doing evil and blaming his actions on something outside of himself. The actions of a religious group are not a proof or disproof of the idea of god, but I think they do make a good argument against evolution—what other species has evolved to be not only so self-destructive, but also so adamant on destroying the entire planet.

    You can take a former theological student like Stalin who killed millions in the name of atheism or the an institution like the Catholic church that killed in the name of god but it still comes down to individual responsibility and choice. We can either choose the higher better course or behave (and debate) like barbarians (no animal behaves as badly as man).

    One would think with all our centuries of knowledge that one day we would actually learn something. I believe that is part of Mr. Rosenberg’s point. If you are truly an
    atheist and comfortable in your position then there is no need for stridency, such demonstrations are more indicative of personal psychological trauma than they are of an individual arriving at this conclusion (of atheism) through reason.

  • Terry November 18, 2013, 12:25 am

    The respect you’ve demonstrated toward people who are atheists is truly noble Paul. I appreciate your willingness to see differing opinions as valid. Thanks for writing!

  • Roger U November 18, 2013, 11:35 pm

    Man is a religious creature and will always hold to a religion, even
    its absence of religion. Did you see where the atheists have churches,

    • louis_wheeler November 19, 2013, 5:49 pm

      First of all, a church is a collection of believers, not a building. The Christian expression of this is “when two or more of you are gathered in my name.”

      Socialists, who are usually Atheists, have taken control of many of our social institutions. Most Educational institutions are Socialist and Atheist. This has been gradual, because the Left believes in subversion. Christians are increasingly not welcome there. The Media and Hollywood were taken over in the 60s. The sexual revolution was anti religious.

      • Roger U November 19, 2013, 9:22 pm

        I should have put “church” in quotation marks.

  • Teresa Geib Bacon November 20, 2013, 12:57 am

    I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I do not hate anyone just disagree making me think I am right. If they read or knew the Bible History, Prophecy, it is fact. There is/has been proof of such for Christ. They don’t get the Trinity so they cannot understand how it fits together. I am so tired of them shoving their Agenda down my throat as I am the Gay agenda or Pro Choice. At the same time like I said I don’t expect any of then to get it. I also don’t understand why Athiests feel so threatened by us. Why do they really care? How is the word God offensive to them. Seperation of Church and State was not set up for the reason they claim. Another misunderstanding.

    • louis_wheeler November 20, 2013, 5:02 am

      We live in an age of reaction, Teresa. A great number of trends are reaching their nadir.

      The belief in totalitarian societies, such as was in Sumer, Egypt and Peru, is quite old, as is in the Utopian Societies, Marxism and Social Democracy. A mixed economy, partly free and partly coerced, is not sustainable. It will lead to tyranny. If you wish an all-power state, then Christian beliefs stand in your way. The Christian faith has institutions, but salvation is individual. A belief in godly authority prevents a total conversion to state idolatry, so religion must be destroyed.

      Evangelical Atheism results from the various forms of Collectivism: Socialism or Fascism. Each seeks total control over people’s minds. Christianity must be destroyed before this can happen.

      Our opponents are progressives and thus they slowly distort our society’s institutions to a socialist and godless end. They must ridicule morality, justice and honor. They must spread a tissue of lies.

      Currently, our opponents actions are producing horrible consequences among the gullible, who are driven mad by a false belief in materialism. Soon enough, the gullible will become so decadent that they will destroy themselves.

      Christians must hold onto their faith that God has a plan and will lead the world out of this wilderness.

      • Alan February 6, 2014, 5:35 am

        Has anyone mentioned that you’re an idiot?

  • lawngren November 25, 2013, 8:51 pm

    Well said. I have the good fortune to have been a believer in Jesus for decades, and I agree with Mr. Rosenberg. When it seems appropriate, I do tell people about my faith, and the reasons for it, but I have no objection to being told, “I don’t want to hear it.” I grieve for what I consider a terrible choice, but it is their right. God does not hold us responsible for other peoples’ choices.

    For future reference, nowhere in the Bible are people commanded to burn witches to death. That may seem a small point, until you face being burned to death. Death by stoning was the prescribed method of execution in the Old Testament. Not a good way to die, I’m sure, but a lot better than being burned to death.

  • Alan February 5, 2014, 6:14 pm

    OK, let’s play that game… You believers really should explain why you no longer accept some of the things written in your book? What is the point of a religious text that you pick and choose from to suit your own preference? What’s the point of a religious morality that just changes with the times – or how you feel at the time?

    Unlike living among some hidden tribe in darkest Africa or somewhere, or among radical Muslims that would seek to kill you, there’s absolutely nothing stopping you from stepping away from Christianity and saying “OK, that’s just silly”.

    So why don’t you?

    Why do you cling to a religion that you don’t take seriously?

    How can any book, doctrine or teaching be of any true use if you’re just going to cherry-pick the bits you like?

    It’s like saying you’re on a low-carb’ diet, apart from bread, pasta and cookies. It makes no sense and yes, it does invite criticism and scorn.

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